...and that's all that's been posted so far...Just wanted to get the thread out there ready for stuff.

I have just three words after today (so far...many more to follow):

PERRILLOUX, JUAMORRIS AND E.J.

And Bill....and chance you could move all that lovely Tv.N stuff you posted in the East-West Shrine Game thread into here?

I am on it, how many other QBs in this draft year can stand on their 27, throw the ball to the other team's 9 and drop on the proper shoulder away from the defense? Colt McCoy, Tim Tebow? Pike and Clausen maybe or Brown after reps?

Offensive Lineman at Left tackle was a solid J'Marcus Webb. Jared Veldheer allowed 3 SACKS!!!!!!!!

North Carolina defensive end E.J. Wilson 6'2 ^3/8" 289 looked great coming around the edge to get sacks. 3 sacks in all but 1 was a effort play thanks to good coverage. He or Holliday might be the best player in today’s game. He’s showing a better burst off the snap than I thought he had, against the run he gives good effort, holds up well, doesn’t do anything special, he’s really solid, with some big play in him like a bigger Ray Edwards.

S Da'Mon Cromartie-Smith is a consistent wrap-up tackler, he played the 'Miner' position in UTEP's 3-3-5, he projects to SS, he has good instincts and showed some quickness and top-end on his scoop and score, he's likely a mis 4.5s in the 40 and looks like he'd be a valuable edition on special teams and might be able to back up both safety spots.

Trindon Holliday the 'Bayou Blur' is only 5'5 ^1/8" 162 but along with his world-class slpeed he displayed elite change of direction, QAB [quickness, agility, balance] some lower body power and exceptional open field instincts. His size is usually seen as his primary negative my concern is ball-security. Still he helped himself by being a Mini-McCluster.

#11 QB Ryan Perrilloux 6'1 ^5/8" 218 looked pretty good taking the snap from under center. That’s something you can’t always say about this year’s quarterback prospects. Where he didn’t look good, though, was after he drops back. At times he keeps his feet dancing around too much, but after tht big pass to Newberry WR Tindal, where he moved up in the pocket, sets at just past the 27 and put it right on the money, outside shoulder at the opponents 9... WOW!

Jared Veldheer's 6'7 ^3/4" 315 footwork was rather slow at both right and left tackle he's still raw in both pass and run protection, He does get a bit upright in pass-protect, was too slow out of his stance, but he flashed some of his impressive athletic ability to reset and you can't teach his size/speed and raw potential. He showed good knee bend though he is inconsistent at finishing blocks but with his ability, size and the power to put up a 425+ hang clean he'll still be gone at the latest in the early 4th.

A.J. Cooley, a running back from Shorter College (NAIA) runs very hard. He’s over 6 feet tall and neraly 230 pounds. He had early struggles in practice, largely because he played in a triple option. He’s got a good first cut, speed a question, he looks low 4.6ish and his quickness looks above average for his size, he will need many reps in the passing game and to improve as a blocker.

Keiton Flemming of West Texas A&M (Transfer from Wyoming) 5'9 ^7/8" 207 pounds, he has a real burst and vision in the open field, shifty with a nice juke fake, he'll need to improve as areceiver and he ran into his fullback on a goal line play, but has a low center of gravity and runs underneath his pads he reminds me of a rawer Ryan Moats.

Dominique Lindsay despite his below average size: 5'9 3/4" 196 is good on runs up the middle, h has good patience and enough burst to get through the hole and to the second level quickly though he's no burner, about 4.56. He does seem to lack elite vision and cutback ability, I remember on a play where the backside end was over aggressive and a lane opened but he stayed play side and grinded out 3 yards. Still he's a safe late round pick as part of a multi-back rotation.

QB Rusty Smith was the Sean Canfield of this game, both he and Hiller have size and good football IQ's but are very limited in terms of upside, not very mobile with below average arms they wll both need good pro days to regain lost ground.

Maybe Skelton in time. You're right though. He has perhaps the nicest deep ball placement of any QB in this draft. I am so glad I stuck my neck out a little with you Bill and kept Ryan in the Top 100 all year.

NOW, go tell THAT to the SID, and get him scheduled!

Veldheer or Webb?

I really enjoyed the Texas Vs. The Nation Game! I specifically watched the Left Tackle positions. I was sorely dissapointed in the performance of thehighly touted Jared Veldheer. What's going on here? I wondered that so many times. Someone on this board said he would go inthe 4th round? Well, does that mean Webb will go in the 1st? J'Marcus Webb was the giant of a man with his size and his play. Sensational play by this phenomenal man. He anchored that position like the professional I am sure he will become. He was quick and agile. Talk about athleticism? He even had a few blocking tackles! I haven't heard any noise about this player on any of these boards. Is ther a reason why? Or is it just so obvious the writers want the glory boy, Veldheer, to rise and shine? I don't think he will be doing that anytime soon, considering he allowed 3 SACKS! Who does that?

He doesn't appear to be a quick and agile OT. He is just one of those athletes who knows how to appear busy. He is a quite jittery player who has no upper body strength, no blocking skills, and needs to shift his weight from his behind to his shoulders. There's not better way to say that one. He's just a slow blob of a a player that has been touted. I, myself, couldn't wait to see him----what an awful player. As they say "Looks like Tarzan, but plays like Jane!"

This one goes to big J'Marcus Webb. 6"8 335lbs? Who is talking about this fella? No one! Here's your pick for the upper rounds. He's fast, agile, has all of the intangibles and is a good looking kid! Let's not get this stuff too twisted guys. Webb didn't allow any sacks! He was super quick on his feet and was a superb blocker!!! Watch the game again and see for yourself. I don't care how much Veldheer can lift. He can't lift those 3 sacks from memory. Webb was rocking that Left OT position and he looked like the competition didn't worry him! What a guy!

Veldheer is still coming from Hillsdale and trust me he's no glory boy, Webb has been mentioned multiple times including an All-American Team, you may want to do a search for him by name here's a sampling, I put him on the all Combine Sub team- www.cdsdraft.com/boards/index.php?act=findpost&pid=150195, he was mentioned in the Cactus Bowl write-ups: www.cdsdraft.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=9375, he was also a member of our D-II All America team- www.http://cdsdraft.com/aa.php?team=Division%20II, those are just the most prominent mentions he also made several mock drafts. We are one of about 4-6 boards and sites that have made several mentions of him. We obviously believe in his talent and potential, I believe he and Veldheer will both be NFL RTs for years, it's not an either or. Webb had the far better game however Veldheer was more consistent in practices, Webb's effort and body language during and after drills was not always what you'd like to see, however Webb has thefootball IQ, footwork and anchor you love as a scout but there have always been questions about his work ethic, he helped himself and I believe he'll be drafted and with a great pro day he could go in the 5th, but despite the Texas v. The Nation the tape of both over multiple games still says that Veldheer still has the slight edge.

JaMarcus is in our Top 20 for OTs for this draft, of the 50 listed in our Position Rankings. How many other site out there can say anything even close to that? I like JaMarcus a lot, and he may even climb higher as time goes by...

The Mention of "body language" is something I think should have been explained a bit more. Who talks about "body language" in a sports blog? I think it's a bit unfair to discuss body language when scouting someone. Who knows what's wrong with a guy on the field. We are reading "body language" now? Hey, these guys who wrote that weren't even scouts. They were sideline, internet-reporters, so what up with that? I saw the game and I don't know either of them. Valdheer shouldn't have even had an invite. J'Marcus WEbb looked as though he handled those guys like a pro tackle. My vote--Webb. Plus, I haven't seen anything that he does wrong. He's fast, agile, hands are great, No one can point out any weakness in his game. There are plenty of weaknesses with Valdheer.

I can assure you that during drills body language is something that scouts examine as well a prospects reactions to hard coaching. 2 of the the 3 NFL scouts I speak to on a semi-regular basis did echo those concerns. You're upset at the wrong guys, we like Webb here but in all fairness he is not a perfect prospect, he had a good game, he did occasionally get too high and though it did not result in a sack George Johnson beat him on a hard move back to the inside and late in the game he did not sustain and finish his run blocks quite like you'd to see. Trust me the NFL has room for both Veldheer and Webb.

Interesting comments - I wasn't there at practices this week so I can't address what was actually seen regarding 'the body language' comments, but I will say that as a coach you can tell who is 'into practice' and who is 'focusing on the drill' by the way a player stands, watches, reacts, moves between stations, and other 'intangibles' that ARE important and are a relevant part of the evaluation. Saying you "haven't seen anything he does wrong" (regarding Webb) means you need to look a little closer or look with a more objective eye - every athlete has areas of improvement.

Regarding Veldheer, I have watched him play in about 5 games over his career and he has the tools to be an extremely productive tackle in the NFL. Different evaluators (not from CDS) have also made many positive comments about his potential.

As state earlier, this isn't an "either/or" deal - they both have the potential to become effective contributors at the next level. Where they go in the draft depends on how they are perceived by the team that selects them and the value they bring based on their entire 'body of work' in games, during practice, in the weightroom, and at the combine.

Personally, I'd like to know who's posting and why they are posting as anonymous guests. I also wonder if all those sites and services (which would probably be MOST of them) that have Webb ranked lower than us are also being hit with these strong, somewhat accusatory comments.

I doubt you will find any site anywhere that has a better track record of being fair to small school prospects over the course of many years than CDS, and Webb is no exception.

Huh? This is a discussion board, right? I thought this is what we were supposed to do is discuss football. Well, the Webb-Veldheer discussion was something I personally wanted to discuss. Why so defensive? Don't you wan't a good discussion about players? First time discussing things---sorry. I am not registered because I didn't think I was going to chat much, but it's turning out differently.

When someone states how they feel it doesn't mean it's a slight towards you. It's a topic for discussion. I'm not a football head. I don't think it's cool to mention "body language" without being more descriptive. Hey, that's the basics for reporting about a subject. Yes, we all look at body language but we have to be careful about our interpretation of such language. Why not be more descriptive with the writing? Why leave it open to ill assumptions.

Once more, Webb didn't allow any sacks. Veldheer did. I just made a note about the play of someone who has been touted along all week. I'm not saying CDS did anything wrong. Matter of fact, I didn't read your postings about it. I'm going to assume they are all good. Didn't mean to offend you guys. Just wanted to have a good discussion. Once again, I'm not a football head. Thought I would watch to kids and compare.

Heck, I saw the size of Webb and wondered why he wasn't being talked about like Veldheer. The sportscasters never mentioned his name during the whole televised event, but they were ready to jump on the Veldheer bandwagon until the sacks kept on coming in. No big deal. I won't comment anymore about it.

Feel free to discuss football and you have made some valid points regarding the Webb-Veldheer comparison, however you may wish to look at more than 1 All-Star appearance. On the "body language" issue I can be more descriptive; at times during position drills particulrly on Wednesday Webb did not always seem to give his full attention and full effort, if you have inside information that may explain why this is a misassessment then please share. We are not being defensive or squelching a discussion we are however trying to provide context you seem to lack. You stated that Webb had not been mentioned here and that is simply incorrect. We believe that both Webb and Veldheer have considerable NFL potential and have said as much more than once what more would it take to satisfy you?

I think part of the issue, Zoe, or whatever your name is, is that you've posted under three different names in this thread alone -- and each time as a guest rather than a member (membership is free, and at the very least it buys you some credibility). It's clear that you're not an impartial person here. You posted the same argument over on the CBSsports website too.

The truth is, we've seen a bit more of Veldheer than Webb throughout the season because of the physical locations of our staff, so we're more familiar with him. Obviously Webb was the more highly touted recruit as a prep, but he couldn't make it at Texas so he transferred to a lower level of competition. Now he's been dominant at WTAMU and clearly showed he still has the ability and promise that we expected from him coming out of the prep ranks back in '06. But is the risk worth the possible reward?

Honestly, the reason you're hearing more about Veldheer than Webb from the "media" is that it's a better story. A rags to riches story about an overachiever. The Webb story isn't as compelling to the journalists. He's been described as lazy. An intelligent person who still couldn't handle academics. A me-first guy who folds when the going gets tough.

From a scouting standpoint, I think there's still more evaluation to be done, but it's not an easy assignment because both are D2 players.

I don't care to receive junk mail, so I'd rather not subscribe. It has nothing to do with credibility. As for the other message boards and opinions----I'm glad other message boards welcome the conversation about the differences amongst these players. The argument you throw my way ------ killing the messenger is weak, because this is just a message board. Get real. I'm not a sports junkie, nor a sports writer.

You call me biased because of my message, but you are admitting being biased because you stated "the truth is we've seen a bit more of Veldheer than Webb throughout the season.." so please don't accuse me of what you are admitting about your staff. I've merely mentioned a game I saw on television. I clearly saw two players. Webb was good and Veldheer had an awful game. I don't care who was highly touted. I just care about who is the better Left Tackle now. I don't personally know the history on either subjects, but it's not a good idea to blast things about people you aren't certain of. I wouldn't dare call Veldheer or Webb "lazy" "couldn't handle academics" those terms are awful and without having known these two young men---I wouldn't dare say that about them. Besides, I don't particularly like the idea of using "lazy" when it refers to people of color. I've only read good things about the Webb kid, but only recently heard him described by such terms. Here and the CBS board are the only places that have knocked this kid, everyone else seems to be in awe of him.

I don't think the media really has covered any story of either one of these guys. I think it's just on the blogs that seem to have the same bloggers. No harm. Just talk. Nothing more.

Actually that's not the case, what was stated was that there was more familarity, with Veldheer, bias for or against any player is not something anyone has stated. Webb and Veldheer both have the ability to play in the NFL a couple of years of tape says that, both have things they'll need to work on, a couple of years of tape says that too. I still don't know what else you want?